Monday, February 21, 2011

HAIL TO THE CHIEF, HE'S THE ONE WE ALL SAY "HAIL" TO:  The American President or Dave?  Explain your reasoning; show all work.

60 comments:

  1. JIM BELL8:51 AM

    <span>"Hail to the chief, he's the chief and he needs hailing, he is the chief so everybody hail like crazy."  That one is Lemony.  I like The American President.  It felt like a dry run of West Wing.  Its in my pantheon of guilty pleasure movies that I have to watch when it is on, like Blues Brothers.</span>

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  2. See, as a rom-com I never thought The American President worked. I adore Sorkin's dialog and I am a huge fan of The West Wing but Sorkin's inabity to write smart, likable women (CJ Cregg and a couple of others excepted) meant Annette Benning came across to me at least as a shrill harpy.

    Dave, on the other hand, I find just fantastic as a comedy, a rom com and on just about every other level. And the cameos throughout the film are funny and add to the story. Especially Oliver Stone.

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  3. JIM BELL9:17 AM

    OK, but, Michael J. Fox was at the height of his powers.

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  4. Maret9:17 AM

    It may be that I've just seen The American President a lot more than Dave, but I choose it both because of how well it laid the groundwork for The West Wing but also for it's great supporting characters, which really clinch the movie for me. I do wonder though, if I would have the same affection for it had TWW never happened.

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  5. Agreed. But so was Kevin Kline in Dave and he was the lead.

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  6. Heather K9:59 AM

    I second what Maret says.

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  7. christy in nyc10:04 AM

    I choose Michael J. Fox.

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  8. "Dave" has a sense of humor -- as evidenced by the cameos or real-life political figures poking fun at themselves.  "The American President" does not -- as evidenced by the typical Sorkin one-dimensional mean-spirited caricatures of anybody on the right and the big preachy speech at the end.  "Dave" is all warm and fuzzy -and funny! - and difficult for anybody (including Right-Wing Tea-Party people like me) to dislike.  "TAP" has some nice moments and Douglas and Bening make an attractive couple up to a point but there is such a nasty, angry under-current (again, typical Sorkin) that it is difficult to stomach. 

    And yes, I am well-aware that I just painted a target on my back.

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  9. christy in nyc10:12 AM

    Oh I forgot to show my work. The American President was in Showtime's rotation during a short period during high school when my parents decided to subscribe to Showtime. I would watch it all. the. time. This was pre-West Wing and it actually took me a while to become aware of how good West Wing was, especially considering my love of The American President--I think maybe I thought it would pale in comparison? Of course I later found out it was only the beginning.

    Anyway so it's one of those movies that I actually literally know by heart because I watched it so much as a youngster. It's in the Mary Poppins/Muppets Take Manhattan/Sister Act 2 realm.

    No ordinary movie could ever compete, regardless of its innate quality.

    Also, Michael J. Fox. "Just vote your conscience, you chickenshit lameass!" It's like a song to me.

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  10. calliekl10:15 AM

    Of course this is how you would vote, Dave.

    (The codeine and tamiflu I'm currently on made this hilarious. Just bear with me.)

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  11. They're too different. Where Dave is straight up rom com - the warm and fuzzies mentioned above - TAP mixes in good drama. TAP has a better supporting cast, but Dave has a lead who is likeable the whole way through. The end of Dave always felt way too goofy to me with the Secret Service agent stepping in front of the door, where TAP ends strong.

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  12. Joseph J. Finn10:28 AM

    I'll go by casts:

    Kevin Kline Vs Michael Douglas?  Easy Kline win, no question.

    Sigourney Weaver Vs. Annette Benning is a bit harder, but I'm going with Weaver just for "Oh.  Bob."

    Frank Langella as the villain Vs. Richard Dreyfuss is really, really tough.  I'm calling a tie, though Langella should probably win for being i more of the movie and more integral.

    Outside best buddy!  Charles Grodin Vs. John Mahoney!  Tough, I love Grodin in his small part, but John Mahoney gets the nod because hey, John Mahoney.

    Now we're getting into how AP has a much bigger cast overall than Dave, so the matchups get a bit tougher.  I don't remember an equivalant for Ving Rhames in AP, so I'm putting him up against Joshua Molina and calling it for Molina, assuming he looks good in a sweater.

    Kevin Dunn Vs. Michael J. Fox, just 'cause, calling it for Fox.

    Now, intangibles.  AP has Martin Sheen, which is hard to argue against.  Dave has Sigourney singing.  AP has a cute moppet presidential daughter, so points against.  Dave has Ben Freaking Kingsley.

    Overall, sorry AP, you are one of those movies that if I run across it I'll watch at least a few minutes, but Dave takes the crown.  AP gets a consolation prize for the underappeciated Anna Deveare Smith.

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  13. The Pathetic Earthling10:29 AM

    I'm with you, Dave, but a detailed critique of The American President skirts a violation of The Rule.

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  14. JIM BELL10:34 AM

    I am going to watch Dave.

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  15. Paul Tabachneck10:52 AM

    I miss the American President just reading this. 

    Oh, but crap, I really liked Dave!  Oh, this is hard.

    No.  No, it's not.  I bought American President on DVD, and did not do so for Dave.  Dave loses for wacky premise.  While I admit that a truly bi-partisan POTUS is itself a wacky premise, it's at least feasible.  I'm not even talking about how ridiculously difficult that switcheroo would be -- do you have any idea how hard it would fall apart once FLOTUS caught wind of it?  I think that's where I drop off of the narrative.  Even though the movie does a good job of making me happy they end up together, it still fails to convince me that that trust would be winnable from a real person in that hubby-switchy position.

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  16. Christy in Philly11:10 AM

    Like Christy, I know The American President by heart. I saw it in the movies, watched it all the time in high school. It was the first DVD I ever owned. The summer after my freshman year in college, I worked 3-11 at Rita's Water ice. Every night, I came home and watched The American President or Something to Talk About (which, by the way, is not a good movie). I'd love to close with a quote, but if I start, I'll never finish. I adore it.

    Also, seeing Annette Benning in the white button down- confirmation that I was a lesbian.

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  17. I agree, but I think a lot of us are trending toward the one we have seen the most.  I have seen Dave many, many times, and love it.  Kline is wonderful and I think the chemistry he has with Sigourney Weaver is terrific.  Also, Grodin!  Bonnie Hunt!  And yes it's a bit of a crazy fantasy, but I am with it the whole way through.

    American President, I have seen fewer times and have less love.  For me, it's a dress rehearsal for The West Wing and suffers in comparison.  Don't get me wrong, it is a good movie, but one for which I have respect rather than affection.

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  18. We all say hail 'cause he keeps himself so clean.  He's got the power, that's why he's in the shower...

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  19. Heh...  Didn't even think of that, given that my cookies automatically dropped my name in there.  But seriously, doesn't the name "Dave" just sort of make you want to smile?

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  20. "Get stuck on DuPont Circtle again?" + "He sent me a Virginia ham." + Sorkin = TAP > Dave

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  21. Joseph J. Finn12:24 PM

    It does have the bit with attempting to order flowers, which is highly in TAPs favor.

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  22. I prefer the politics of The American President, but Dave is a funnier movie.  Both are definitely in the "if I've got nothing on my DVR and am flipping around on cable and it's on, I'll keep watching" category.

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  23. Jeff V12:28 PM

    I'd cast my vote for "Dave."  I really like the first half of "The American President," particularly the relationship between Michael Douglas and Martin Sheen.  Where it stops resonating for me is when Dreyfuss' character comes onto the scene.  He's a little too Snidely Whiplash for my taste, and the false drama resulting just drags down the entire enterprise.  "Dave" doesn't try to be believable, and because of that strikes me as more believable.  And I love the sequence showing off a President with a great sense of humor.

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  24. Hobart12:30 PM

    First: Love, Love Love, Dave.  But mainly because teenage interested in politics me loved Dave for the fantasy of what politics could be.

    Adult interested in politics me has to favor TAP for taking at least a somewhat realistic approach to the trade-offs built into the system and the pain involved in challenging that, even if everything was done in a West Wing 0.1 way.

    I have to go back to the scene in Dave in which Charles Grodin drops by the White House and balances the budget.  It made for a nice punchline but completely ignored the reality that the federal budget is not a household budget in which you can cut out the lattes and vacations. Its not even a difficult income tax return that can be done in one stressful night, it's a massively complicated series of trade-offs, each of which has a consituency fighting tooth and nail to protect it.  Dave works better as a romantic political fantasy about how common sense can rule the day and I enoyed that at one point in my life.  But I prefer the reality that these are smart people doing hard work (if occasionally doing so disingenuously) and The American President comes closer to depicting that reality.


    Still, the best scene in either one is Oliver Stone breaking down the imposter president on Larry King.

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  25. Benner12:50 PM

    Both movies have wonderful performances and smart dialogue, both are heavy-handed poltically, but Andrew Sheppard does not involve himself in a flagrant violation of the 25th Amendment and innumerable federal statutes relating to succession, false statements, and the right to honest services.  The fact that Frank Langella was depicted as a "bad guy" is almost beside the point.  On one hand, the people seemingly voted for the ideology of a Bill Mitchell and, failing that, VP Gandhi.  Not Dave Kovic.  

    Therefore, the winner is Dave, because it succeeds in achieving such a seemingly-absurd suspension of disbelief.  Also, it's a remake of a Kurosawa movie, Kagemusha, which should be worth something.

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  26. Joseph J. Finn1:12 PM

    Wellllll....Kagemusha (the movie, not the historical story behind it) was part of a long line of Prince & The Pauper-style stories, like Prisoner of Zenda.  I'm not sure we can say Dave is inspired by any one more than another (though the plot is probably closer to the Zenda novel than anything else).

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  27. spacewoman1:53 PM

    Ah, but now you've made me want to quote (and probably butcher) Something to Talk About: "Are you addressing me?  Why don't you lick it, stamp it, and mail it to someone who gives a shit?"  The only good line in a bad movie, I've been waiting forever for a chance to use it.

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  28. Adlai2:22 PM

    See, I find that part too Sorkin-y.

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  29. Adlai2:23 PM

    Dave has Abner Mikva. The American Presidennt does not. Q.E.D.

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  30. D'Arcy2:24 PM

    I haven't seen either of these movies, but I definitely agree that Something to Talk About is not a good movie.

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  31. Adlai2:26 PM

    <span>See, that's why I think Dave wins - it manages, through sheer force of charm, to sell a crazy premise. TAP, by contrast, is sort of formulaic. (I mean, I still watch it whenever it's on, but Dave is the sillier movie, and thus harder to pull off.)</span>

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  32. Joseph J. Finn2:31 PM

    Yes, quite Sorkin-y, but still fun.

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  33. Anonymous2:50 PM

    TAP is on right now, Dave isn't. TAP FTW!

    I like Dave over Andrew Shepard as POTUS, but find the switcheroo plot to be too ridiculous to be believed.

    Though I never understood why Sydney was taking Dupont Circle to go to the WH...I'm assuming her offices were on or near the Farr West/K st. area? You wouldn't need to go through Dup Circle at all.

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  34. The Pathetic Earthling3:21 PM

    I don't remember that.  Which scene?

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  35. The Pathetic Earthling3:22 PM

    Useless Abner Mikva trivia?  Author of the opinion at 1 F.3d 1

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  36. Linda3:25 PM

    I'm not educated enough about the issues to vote, but I just teared up a bit realizing that I'm not the only one who frequents these parts who doesn't like Sorkin. 

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  37. Adlai3:26 PM

    He swears in Ben Kingsley at the end of the movie.

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  38. I own and enjoy both films (on VHS....doh!).  But I bought Dave as a teenager with my own money, and therefore, it wins.

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  39. I adore Kevin Kline and I loved Dave, and often sing the "He has the power because he's in the shower" line.

    However, for quotability and sheer number of times I have seen it, I have to go with The American President. I am not generally an Annette Bening fan, nor do I have insane Michael Douglas love, and in spite of that, I still love this movie. So that has to mean something. Also the amount of times I say, "Come friends, let us away" in my best Martin Sheen voice during a week is sort of shocking.

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  40. JIM BELL3:58 PM

    <span>Maybe this will Garner a response too: "Hail to the Chief if you don't I'll have to kill you, I am the chief so you had better watch your step, you bastards."</span>

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  41. JIM BELL4:09 PM

    <span>I didn't want to have to do this but since there are quotes, I got this version of one of my favorites from Wikipedia:President Andrew Shepherd: Good. My nervousness exists on several levels. Number one, and this is in no particular order, I haven't done this in a pretty long time. Number two, uh, any expectations that you might have, given the fact that I'm... you know...Sydney Ellen Wade: [approaching seductively] The most powerful man in the world?President Andrew Shepherd: Exactly, thank you. I think it's important you remember that's a political distinction that comes with the office. I mean, if, uh, Eisenhower were here instead of me, he'd be dead by now.
    And, I'm not the least bit offended that he picked a Republican to be the dead bad lover.</span>

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  42. Anonymous5:09 PM

    I tried to walk out of that movie.
    Unfortunately, my ride did not share my opinion, so I had to go back.

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  43. Anonymous5:25 PM

    As a fellow American, I see what you did there.

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  44. StvMg5:27 PM

    Does The West Wing even happen if The American President hadn't been such a huge success? For me, that's more than enough reason to side with The American President.

    And while Spin City wasn't a great sitcom by any means, it still was enjoyable. And I don't know if that show exists if Fox doesn't take that Stephanopoulosesque role on The American President first.

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  45. J. Bowman5:36 PM

    I was all set to vote for Dave, until I remembered that TAP includes David Paymer, who makes things awesome.
    "If that was an 'undecided,' we need to work on our people skills."

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  46. "I once caught a fish THIS BIG."  'Nuff said.

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  47. JIM BELL6:05 PM

    I sing the Jack Lemmon version under my breath whenever I hear the tune.  Notably, I think I only saw the movie twice...

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  48. Adlai6:05 PM

    I took that to be more an Eisenhower health joke than a partisan joke. For go-to ailing presidents, Wilson would also be a good choice.  

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  49. spacewoman7:19 PM

    Not Harrison?

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  50. Anonymous7:22 PM

    Yes, that is EXACTLY where TAP goes off the rails for me.  It would have been completely possible (for anybody but Sorkin, I guess) to make the politics of TAP ambiguous enough not alienatel half the potential audience, but nooooo.....  And if you doubt me, was Jefferson Smith a Democrat or a Republican?  Depends which one you are, doesn't it?  "Dave" goes there, too, but with a much lighter touch.

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  51. JIM BELL8:26 PM

    I think maybe it was a great sitcom.  I mean, it made me laugh.  I once watched an old episode of it that I had seen before on a nighttime flight to Rome (leave Philadelphia at 6:15 p.m. arrive Roma in the a.m.) and I laughed so hard that I woke up other passengers and made them glare at me.  The feeling of security was the only cool thing about weighing 317 pounds back then.  Michael J. Fox = Funny, really funny.  I give you family ties, spin city.

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  52. JIM BELL8:28 PM

    Oh yeah, and those movies about the DeLorean.

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  53. calliekl9:09 PM

    I totally agree on Dreyfuss. That scene when he gets the picture of Sidney burning the flag and starts singing, "It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas...", as he's drinking a Scotch by candlelight? All he's missing is a good moustache twirl, right?

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  54. calliekl9:10 PM

    I was going to hit "Like", but what I really wanted to hit was "Love".

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  55. calliekl9:12 PM

    That is a great line that makes me laugh out loud every time. Even reading it just now, I snorted my diet pepsi.

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  56. exmundelainer8:03 AM

    Love both movies -- Dave is incredibly sweet, but TAP has that something extra for me. What can I say? I love Sorkin's dialogue. But as an FYI, John Mahoney is NOT a best buddy. He's Sydney Ellen Wade's boss who ends up firing her. Andrew Shepard's best friend is Martin Sheen and Syd doesn't really have any friends -- only her sister.

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  57. My husband says that about Dupont Circle everytime TAP is one...

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  58. So much has been said already that I agree with, so I'll just say that I love both movies. I'm a sucker for idealized versions of politics, and for romance thrown in with serious themes. I love Sigourney Weaver singing "Tomorrow" and Annette Bening coming out of the President's bathroom in just his shirt. I love Dave finding a way to keep the homeless kids program, and Andrew Shepard saying he's going "get the guns."  I love Michael J. Fox and Anna Deveare Smith (and the hey-it's-that-guy pollster.  "It's Christmas?" "You didn't get the memo?") and I love to hate Frank Langella.  I love Dave's secret sandwich recipe and Andy's daughter playing "Hail to the Chief." (Yup, I'm a sap.)

    So... I'm not gonna choose. :)

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  59. jenn@kepkanation.com8:06 PM

    I love both of these movies, but what it comes down to for me is that one is a near-perfect specimen within its field, and one is flawed. "Dave' is really, really well done romantic comedy that happens to have a political setting; "The American President" is a political drama with some sharp, funny lines thrown in. The trouble with TAP is that it has no clear statement of purpose, as a political drama -- it's for, uh, honesty? And against lack of honesty? Is that really a political issue? (No -- or at least, not one that both sides don't claim to be winners in). So when Sorkin chooses to put a Democrat on the side of Good and a Republican on the side of Bad, he makes a political choice, but HE doesn't show his work. Without getting into his political motives and how this makes some of us love the movie more and some of us not like it at all, it's lazy. Sure, there's a teensy subplot about the president killing some kind of environmental bill, but is anyone clear on the logistics? At the end, all we're told is that it's up to the President of the United States and his personal WILLPOWER to make a bill pass. This is technically false.

    So: If you want to make a political movie, make a political movie. Make it accurate and sparkling and educational. ("The West Wing" was better at this). If you want, instead, to make a romantic comedy in a political setting, don't give it all the trappings of something serious and dramatic as an excuse to make two people who are clearly the stars of the show kiss at the end.

    I actually love TAP, but it is, like all things Sorkin, trying to do so many things at once that it must fail at a few. What it fails at is being a coherent member of any genre. I'll still watch it every time it shows up on cable. :)

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  60. JIM BELL10:25 AM

    Maybe I'm a lesbian too then :)

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