At my college newspaper, we debated this all the time, especially when a band had a plural name. The rule we followed was that a band was a single entity, thus you used singular verb forms. This proved awkward when we'd have something that read "The Old 97s is...."
Collective nouns are the bane of my grammar existence. If The Arcade Fire is acting as a single entity, it's the singular verb. If The Arcade Fire are arguing amongst themselves or are otherwise not acting cohesively, it's the plural verb.
But I think the Brits do things a little differently.
There's one context in which "the TAF are" is clearly correct -- when it's being used as the object of a prepositional phrase after a plural noun: "The songs of the Arcade Fire are compelling." FWIW.<span> </span>
Can we redefine the scope of this discussion to be about the band named Arcade Fire? Right now we're talking about the famous Fire that happened in the Arcade.
But that has nothing to do with whether TAF is/are singular or plural. In your sentence, "are" goes with "songs." This sentence is also correct: "That song by the Arcade Fire is crap." Your example says nothing about TAF.
I have this problem all the time with the word "faculty." The faculty is? The faculty are? I end up writing a lot about "members of the faculty are." Tis annoying.
Detroit Red Wing Production Line legend Sid Abel was a color commentator for Red Wings' games from the '60s through the '80s. He always referred to the team in the plural no matter how he was speaking of them.
"Detroit are skating well tonight..." became a staple of radio morning show imitators of Sid's.
If some of the members of the group are contemplating the set list and they disagree on which songs to play, then The Arcade Fire are debating the set list. If the group as a whole is debating against Kings of Leon and they (TAF) are all in agreement on some point they are arguing as a unit, then The Arcade Fire is debating.
This is a good illustration of why collective nouns are such a pain. The rules tell us a collective noun can take either a singular verb or a plural verb, and the choice depends on the sense you're going for. As Chicago 16 puts it, "a singular verb emphasizes the group as a unit; a plural verb emphasizes the invidual members" (p. 205).
In practical terms, though, this rule is more useful for nouns like "bourgeoisie" and "faculty" than for band names, and that's partially because of the Beatles Clause: "The Beatles is" and "The Beatles was" looks and sounds ridiculous. Could either of these construction ever be a good choice for my publication? No! So I will do what Pitchfork does and, in print, make all bands take plural verbs: Arcade Fire are on tour, Arcade Fire are a band, Arcade Fire are pretty great live, Arcade Fire are your Album of the Year winners.
At my college newspaper, we debated this all the time, especially when a band had a plural name. The rule we followed was that a band was a single entity, thus you used singular verb forms. This proved awkward when we'd have something that read "The Old 97s is...."
ReplyDeleteCollective nouns are the bane of my grammar existence. If The Arcade Fire is acting as a single entity, it's the singular verb. If The Arcade Fire are arguing amongst themselves or are otherwise not acting cohesively, it's the plural verb.
ReplyDeleteBut I think the Brits do things a little differently.
There's one context in which "the TAF are" is clearly correct -- when it's being used as the object of a prepositional phrase after a plural noun: "The songs of the Arcade Fire are compelling." FWIW.<span> </span>
ReplyDeleteThe official name of where I work is like that. I go to crazy lengths to avoid having to say, "The UGA Libraries is blahdeeblah"
ReplyDeletePossibly relevant: there's a video in my YouTube subscription box from TheEllenShow with the title, "Lady Antebellum loves their flasks!"
ReplyDeletePerhaps the Arcade Fire can have a civil war to go from The Arcade Fire are to the Arcade Fire is.
ReplyDeleteWhy I love this place: random, relevant Shelby Foote quotes.
ReplyDeleteShelby Foote broke my mother's nose.
ReplyDeleteIt's a fair point, but apparently both were in common useage before the Civil War.
ReplyDeletehttp://ngrams.googlelabs.com/graph?content=United+States+is%2C+United+States+are&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=0&smoothing=3
(Ngrams is one of the great time sponges. Beware).
Can we redefine the scope of this discussion to be about the band named Arcade Fire? Right now we're talking about the famous Fire that happened in the Arcade.
ReplyDeleteIn that context, Arcade Fire is.
But that has nothing to do with whether TAF is/are singular or plural. In your sentence, "are" goes with "songs." This sentence is also correct: "That song by the Arcade Fire is crap." Your example says nothing about TAF.
ReplyDeleteI have this problem all the time with the word "faculty." The faculty is? The faculty are? I end up writing a lot about "members of the faculty are." Tis annoying.
ReplyDeleteNo, it doesn't. I merely raise that to suggest that if you believe (as I do) that TAF is singular, it doesn't mean every "TAF are" is wrong.
ReplyDeleteDetroit Red Wing Production Line legend Sid Abel was a color commentator for Red Wings' games from the '60s through the '80s. He always referred to the team in the plural no matter how he was speaking of them.
ReplyDelete"Detroit are skating well tonight..." became a staple of radio morning show imitators of Sid's.
--bd
If some of the members of the group are contemplating the set list and they disagree on which songs to play, then The Arcade Fire are debating the set list. If the group as a whole is debating against Kings of Leon and they (TAF) are all in agreement on some point they are arguing as a unit, then The Arcade Fire is debating.
ReplyDeleteThis is a good illustration of why collective nouns are such a pain. The rules tell us a collective noun can take either a singular verb or a plural verb, and the choice depends on the sense you're going for. As Chicago 16 puts it, "a singular verb emphasizes the group as a unit; a plural verb emphasizes the invidual members" (p. 205).
ReplyDeleteIn practical terms, though, this rule is more useful for nouns like "bourgeoisie" and "faculty" than for band names, and that's partially because of the Beatles Clause: "The Beatles is" and "The Beatles was" looks and sounds ridiculous. Could either of these construction ever be a good choice for my publication? No! So I will do what Pitchfork does and, in print, make all bands take plural verbs: Arcade Fire are on tour, Arcade Fire are a band, Arcade Fire are pretty great live, Arcade Fire are your Album of the Year winners.
I have the same problem with "staff." Is the staff one unit, or is it several people?
ReplyDeleteFair enough.
ReplyDelete