Wednesday, April 20, 2011

FOUR - WHEN ORDERING FOOD, YOU FIND OUT WHAT SHE WANTS, THEN ORDER FOR THE BOTH OF YOU. IT'S A CLASSY MOVE. "NOW, THE LADY WILL HAVE ..."  From one of our college-aged readers who'd rather this query not come up in a Google search for his name, an urgent request for the ALOTT5MA Modern Love and Senior-Year Hookups Desk:
I've just committed to an evening with a girl I like very much on Thursday night. I'm excited and nervous in equal measure, largely because I'm a notorious dork. As someone who goes on few enough first dates, and even fewer second dates, I'd like to get ask the ALOTT5MA commentariat for help in the most general sense. My default plan was just going to be dinner at a comfortable restaurant, but I'm open to suggestions Where do I go? What do I do? What do I say? What/where DON'T I do/say/go/eat/think/etc.? Do I pay? Help me, ALOTT5MA, you're my only hope.

Notes: I'm 22, she's 20. I need to stick to a reasonable budget. Our college is located in Central Massachusetts. I have a car, and the date is at 8pm.

70 comments:

  1. Let me start my advice here: get on Chowhound, locate quality ethnic food.  Show that you put some thought into this, and that you're adventurous.  

    Payment: you offer to pay, and if she suggests she wants to pay her share then don't fight it too much.

    Keep expectations low in terms of what will happen. Just have a good time.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Go for a mid-level restaurant---not too cheap (looks like you're not interested), not too expensive (looks like you're trying too much to show off).  I know in Athens (where I went to school) that there were a few places like that.  If you know that she's into a particular type of cuisine, go for that.  Otherwise, it seemed like the standby would be Italian, when I was in school.

    Dress---again, mid-level.  Not too dressy, not too casual.  But make sure that you're comfortable in whatever it is.  If you're twitching at something that doesn't fit right or is uncomfortable, you'll look like you're not enjoying being with her.

    Maybe things have changed, but I always viewed the guy offering to pay as "yes, this really is a date." 

    As to what to say: be yourself.  Don't sound like you're trying to move things too fast.  Ask her what she likes to do around town, which, hey, who doesn't like to talk about stuff they like?  It would also make it easier to schedule a second date, if you know what she likes.  And be ready to do the same.

    ReplyDelete
  3. All of my Central Mass dates were in high school, so I'm afraid I won't be much help.  (Friendly's, anyone?)  But seriously...what about a Vietnamese place?  I'm told that Worcester has some quality restaurants in that genre.

    Pick out some good music for the car ride.  Have it playing when you pick her up.  Don't rely on the radio.  Don't make it too cheesy.  Maybe something like an older Ben Harper album?

    Most importantly, you need to be yourself.  If she didn't think she was remotely interested, she wouldn't have said yes in the first place.

    ReplyDelete
  4. victoria1:03 PM

    Don't eat anything garlicky unless you both eat something garlicky.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Love the post title. My husband and I quote this speech all the time.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Make it someplace that you like.  Restaurants, they don't impress women as much as we think they do, and food always tastes good on the first date.  You're not in Vegas, and you're not in L.A.  You're in a college town in Central Massachusetts.  Surprise her, but make her feel comfortable.  Make it different, but make her feel at home.  But mostly, make it someplace that you like.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Watts1:45 PM

    I'm going to put on my curmudgeon hat here for a moment to complain about how LOUD a lot of restaurants are these days.  Especially those trendy ones with cement floors and industrial, exposed ceilings.  You don't need silent, stately, and boring, but it's nice if you're not having to yell at each other across the table.

    I'm too chicken to bring the conversation around to what you should at the end of the evening: hug, handshake, kiss, handcuffs?

    ReplyDelete
  8. Watts1:47 PM

    Oh, and I'm assuming this young man is a nice young man not raised by wolves, but you'd be surprised how many 30-something, 40-something men don't get the simple concept of EYE CONTACT.  Too much and it's weird, too little and it's painful.  Like someone said above, she liked you enough to say yes, don't freak out and look at your feet the whole time.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Just be yourself.  Oh, and compliment her shoes.  Girls like that.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Chuck1:55 PM

    When you pick her up, say, "Oh, I was hoping you would wear something a little more, I don't know, slutty."  In the car on the way to the restaurant, start talking politics, especially if you have some extreme and passionate views.  If they are about local politics, even better.  When you arrive at the Burger King in Central Massachusetts, but before you get out of the car, start talking about your last girlfriend and how you are still hoping to get back together.  Then step out of the car and say, "Stay in the car.  I just want to make sure my Burger King franchise is in good shape."  Get back in the car and head to whatever the local "big date" restaurant is -- the overpriced, overly fancy place.  During the meal, use your fork to try the food on her plate -- without asking permission.   Insist on paying -- I suspect, if you have followed the advice this far, she will insist on paying (if she is still there).  When you pay, be sure to comment on what a nice big tip you are leaving. 

    ReplyDelete
  11. In the spirit of the post title, don't forget your wallet.

    ReplyDelete
  12. I'm a big fan of dinner-and-a-movie, especially if the movie is before the meal.  Gives you something to talk about right away at dinner that isn't, "So... tell me about yourself." 

    And I never ordered anything with sauce on a first date.  Definitely no pasta. I was sure to get it on myself. But that's just me.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Be yourself.
    Go someplace that will not make you uncomfortable but someplace that isn't too loud.
    Open doors.
    Try to pay unless she really insists.  Don't fight it too much but a simple, "No, it's my pleasure" goes a long way.
    Smile.  Laugh. 
    Make eye contact.
    Ask her questions.
    If you're nervous, that's ok.  It's even okay to say it.  There's something adorable about being on a date with a guy who admits he's nervous.
    Tell her she looks nice.

    At the end of the night, if you don't feel comfortable with anything more than a hug, give the hug.  Give the indication that you want to touch her and see her again.  And then email/call/text/whatever you kids do tomorrow and ask her out again. 

    ReplyDelete
  14. Uh, gay guys notice shoes.  I like a "you look really pretty" or "you look really nice."

    ReplyDelete
  15. isaac_spaceman2:17 PM

    How about "I asked that gay guy over there if I shouldcompliment your shoes, and he said I should."  Credit for noticing, no demerit for being gay.

    ReplyDelete
  16. There's a difference between noticing shoes and being able to identify them by brand, make and model on sight.  (Okay, now I'll take Things I Learned From Legally Blonde for $400, Alex.)

    Let me say this on the reverse of that: it's okay to dress and primp like this matters. You don't have to be casual about it.

    ReplyDelete
  17. isaac_spaceman2:26 PM

    Yes, and a few additional suggestions:

    English accents are so played out.  Speak with a South African accent.  Either race works.
    Hire a gay valet for the evening. 
    Use a money clip and lick your fingers when you're counting off bills. 
    Make sure to credit GOOP for your ideas.
    Never walk when you can run.  To the car, to the bathroom, whatever. 
    Kosher for passover only. 
    Never smile at a monkey. 

    ReplyDelete
  18. Squid2:41 PM

    I thought it was running to the bathroom, and skipping back to the table.  But I've been away from the game for a long time.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Squid2:45 PM

    She's 20?  Just find out what kind of booze she likes and then the two of you can get hammered while you watch the Thursday night lineup.  Can't fail!

    ReplyDelete
  20. Emily2:49 PM

    <p><span><span>First: I have thoroughly enjoyed following this on Twitter. Everyone has said the big things (be yourself, try to have fun, make eye contact, open doors, ask about her interests). I agree that doing something fun, even if it seems kinda random, makes for a good first date. It helps if you know something about her and what kind of things that she likes, but it could also just be something that you want to try. And, KR is right, admitting you're nervous (if you are) can be pretty adorable. Do not check your phone/email/text/twitter/fb during the date. Even though we'll all be anxiously awaiting your post-date recap, give her the respect she deserves and focus on her for the duration of the date.</span></span></p>

    ReplyDelete
  21. Okay, straight boys....how many of you compliment women on their shoes???

    ReplyDelete
  22. Are monocles back in?

    ReplyDelete
  23. Jim Bell3:29 PM

    And, if you were a dork you should say you were sorry. Girls like that [too].

    ReplyDelete
  24. Jim Bell3:30 PM

    And if she tips, add a little bit of cash to what she left.  I don't believe in tipping so much as overtipping.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Don't be too handsy.  Don't stare at her chest or her ass too much -- regardless of what she is wearing.  Don't sweat or lick your lips like a goon.  At the end of the night, if all goes well but you're not sure how much she likes you, DO NOT HUG HER, offer a kiss on the cheek.  Even if the only use you have for this girl is to see her naked and have sex with her, act as if it is...not the furthest thing on your mind...but pretty far away.

    Oh, and don't kiss her hand or anything froofy like that.  I always found that a little slimey.

    ReplyDelete
  26. Let's talk hug vs. kiss on cheek vs. whatever else.  I've had a number of first dates that ended in a hug that lead to much much more.  It's the no physical contact that concerns me and a kiss on the cheek can be a tough one.  If you can get a kiss on the cheek, why not one on the mouth?

    ReplyDelete
  27. gretchen3:40 PM

    Have an idea of what you want to do after dinner if things are going well.  Some suggestions: go somewhere else for dessert, take a walk, go get a cup of coffee, etc.  Doesn't really matter what it is -- just gives you an extra venue in case you are ready to leave the restaurant but are not ready to head back to ye olde dorm room.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Yes!  No checking of pocket appliances!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Have your first date on Valentines Day.  Bring a big bouquet to a casual lunch, thus embarrassing her.  Be zoned on Sudafed and blow your nose a lot at the table.  Leave your cell phone out and check its screen constantly.  If she brings up the law, make sure to mention your fascination with rape law.  Spend too long in the bathroom.  Let her go Dutch without protest.  Make a pretty funny joke about child digital amputation, and marry me some years later.

    If you like each other, being awkward shouldn't matter. 

    ReplyDelete
  30. bella wilfer3:50 PM

    Agree with Maret on the paying plan - honestly, THE GUY SHOULD PAY.  Sorry, I know it's super antiquated to say this, but seriously, dude.  If you can't pay for my 15 dollar entree, how are you going to buy me a ring years and years down the line? (I'm sort of kidding on that logic but I do think there's something very emasculating about the girl having to split the bill on the first date).  I like Maret's idea of - if she insists on paying - saying "hey, why don't you buy the first round of drinks."  I've offered that up in the past and it's a great way to keep a fun date going.  GOOD LUCK! It'll be great.  Your twitter fans await the results. :)

    ReplyDelete
  31. isaac_spaceman3:50 PM

    Your question incorrectly implies that they were once out. 

    ReplyDelete
  32. bella wilfer3:52 PM

    I'd also like to add that I vastly prefer the ALOTT5MA Modern Love quorum to the NY Times one.

    ReplyDelete
  33. Watts3:52 PM

    The clearest signal I ever got on a date that there was to be no future canoodling of any sort was the hair tousle.  Yep, that's right - we're saying good night and he leans in and I'm anticipating and then, boom, he mussed my hair and said, "See ya."  I have never felt more like a cocker spaniel in my life.

    ReplyDelete
  34. That can get you in trouble.  See, e.g. Ross Geller v. Leonard Green.

    ReplyDelete
  35. So we meet at last.  I admire your skills, Mr. Peanut.

    ReplyDelete
  36. PiledHighandDeep4:12 PM

    Mostly excellent advice above...just chiming in to say good luck and have fun.  It's not brain surgery, it's a date, and even if it doesn't go perfectly, don't worry...most things in life are not perfect.

    And for heaven's sake, keep your phone in your pocket, on silent.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Ah, Jim, I saw your comment without realizing which comment you were responding to, and therefore missed the tone.  Got it now. 

    ReplyDelete
  38. Heather K4:35 PM

    If this conflicting lady advice confuses you, I am engaged to a man who DID NOT EVEN HUG OR KISS ME AT ALL until the 3rd date!!  And then it was a super AWKWARD peck on the cheek I forced upon him.  In fact all that just say bye and not touch business was SUPER CONFUSING because we went on these fantastic dates that seemed so awesome and promising with great conversation and to the symphony and a sondheim musical and a movie and food usually too.  And then the date would end like he never wanted to see me again.  SO HARD TO PUZZLE through!

    Anyway, the only way we worked that out was by me not having a key to my new apartment (roommate had key as she seldom left house except for work) and roommate being out at the moment he cabbed me home from a date and I literally had no place to go, so went to his place (this sounds like I set it up but I didn't).

    So I say do something physical/affectionate if you would like to see her again.  It doesn't really matter what it is as long as it is honest to yourself AND to what has happened between the two of you on said date preceeding it. 

    ReplyDelete
  39. Heather K4:36 PM

    Also going non-perfectly leads to great stories later in life (whether things go badly or totally to shit).

    ReplyDelete
  40. gtv20004:42 PM

    How many straight guys even notice if she's wearing shoes?

    ReplyDelete
  41. gtv20004:44 PM

    Smile.  Genuinely.  Don't be so concerned that you take it too seriously.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Jenn.4:52 PM

    For the record, I didn't mean "mid-level" in the sense of "boring."  I meant mid-level as in "If I were in Athens today, I might think Five-and-Ten was a bit much for a first date, and The Taco Stand was a bit low for a first date." 

    ReplyDelete
  43. Adlai4:55 PM

    YES. True for young women, too. If you find it hard, try looking at the bridge of her nose instead. (Btw, that is the one practical piece of advice I learned from a Patricia Cornwell mystery.)

    ReplyDelete
  44. Adlai4:56 PM

    People, it's an American President reference.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Adlai4:59 PM

    And don't use the word "lady." 

    ReplyDelete
  46. Watts5:05 PM

    I love that I get those examples. How many first dates do you think end up at DiPalma's?

    ReplyDelete
  47. Jim Bell5:15 PM

    Two, Two American President references.  Great day for Jimmy.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Jenn.5:22 PM

    I loved DiPalma's.  Loved, loved, loved it. 

    ReplyDelete
  49. This is my favorite thread ever. I love you all.

    ReplyDelete
  50. Nancy5:50 PM

    Athens OH?

    ReplyDelete
  51. Heather, was it absolutely clear that the first two "dates" were intended to be dates?

    ReplyDelete
  52. Adam C.6:02 PM

    Yes, this.  Worked for me on my first date with my wife!

    ReplyDelete
  53. Adam C.6:07 PM

    Caveat on the movie -- choose wisely, and don't see something that has even a moderate chance of being disturbing or offputting.  I remember a college date that involved seeing War of the Roses.  Turns out, her parents had gone through an ugly divorce.  That did not lend itself to good dinner conversation after.

    ReplyDelete
  54. The Pathetic Earthling6:30 PM

    It's vitally important that you make yourself not worried about the outcome of the date whether that outcome is hope for a second date, hope for some action, or hope that she'll want to marry you.  If you are anything like me -- and from your question, I'm guessing so -- you probably build these things up to be critical events in your life.  They aren't -- as I learned much later -- even critical events to having sex.  Dates can be fun, if you just remember you are trying to have a good time with someone.  If they get built up into something much more, disappointment is inevitable.  Just roll with it.

    ReplyDelete
  55. Adam C.6:34 PM

    I should be more specific, I suppose -- after a fun dinner (at a mid-level restaurant!) with good conversation, we went to a party at her friend's apartment.  She and I talked, danced, and hung out with the band -- the singer/guitarist was a law school classmate of mine. Eventually, that paid off with me dueting on "It's the End of the World As We Know It" (displaying one of my only skills, which is knowing most of the the words to "It's the End of the World As We Know It") while she played tambourine.  We scheduled the second date before we even left the party.

    Bear in mind, this may not work for you if you do not know most of the words to "It's the End of the World As We Know It."

    ReplyDelete
  56. Maddy7:07 PM

    <p>Yeah, to Isaac's last sentence, the fact that you're even going on a date instead of doing the vague hanging out thing is impressive.  I've been with my boyfriend for almost six months and I think we've gone out to dinner maybe twice.  I'm totally cool with that because we do things like going to the farmer's market and watching The Wire (and eating meals in the dining hall) instead, but still, props for expending more effort than is generally expected. 
    </p>

    ReplyDelete
  57. gtv20007:16 PM

    Okay, I admit I missed the reference.  So I looked it up on imdb - they apparently think the whole movie is quotable

    http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112346/quotes

    ReplyDelete
  58. Heather K7:36 PM

    It so ABSOLUTELY was. On the first one I explicitly said it while asking him out on said date (to movie he upped it with dinner) and because we were introduced in a very clear you two should date fix up (on a three hour lake Michigan/Chicago river cruise where he dissappeared and did not speak to me for all three hours). But he was so great when he would talk to me! Later discovered that I was his first date (at 27) since he was 16 and in high school. And that on that cruise (a thing his company did) everyone else on the boat knew I was brought their as a fix up for him and was watching his every move. So there was explanations that made sense. Also sometime soon we are getting married!

    ReplyDelete
  59. isaac_spaceman7:55 PM

    Or if she hates "It's the End of the World as We Know It." 

    ReplyDelete
  60. Anonymous8:09 PM

    Remember the ALOTT5MA oft-quoted anthem: Dating is supposed to be fun! Nerves are normal, but try to move past them, and have fun!

    This thread makes me wish I've dated more, so I'd have better stories. Most of mine are aggressive, angry, or bonkers asking-out stories, that I (needless to say) turned down.

    And we anxiously await your updates on twitter AFTER the date is over.

    ReplyDelete
  61. victoria8:18 PM

    You could always bring her to Easter dinner with your family as your first date. Worked for me, anyhow.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Marsha10:29 PM

    Me and husband:

    First date - dinner at Flat Top Grill (for the Chicagoans). Split the check. Absolutely no physical contact of any kind.

    Second date - dinner at Indian restaurant followed by my birthday celebration at a bar (his idea). He paid. Moderate kissing.

    Third date - hanging out in his apartment the following night. I proposed. A year later, he accepted.

    Moral of the story - if this is meant to be, it'll happen, no matter how clueless and awkward you are, no matter who pays, no matter what kind of food you have. Be yourself, and treat her nicely.

    ReplyDelete
  63. Um, that was me. Wasn't logged in on the work computer.

    ReplyDelete
  64. spacewoman10:33 PM

    Best first date ever: Cheap Thai and great conversation. 

    ReplyDelete
  65. Hannah Lee10:55 PM

    Well, it's Sorkin, so, it may just be.

    ReplyDelete
  66. Hannah Lee11:12 PM

    Whatever you do, don't go to a comedy club (is there still one at the Aku Aku?  Is there still an Aku Aku?)

    Nothing good can come of it.  For one thing, comedy clubs tend to be too loud, so you won't be able to talk to each other much.   Plus:

    If you both think the comics are bad, you'll both feel uncomfortable, which will color how you feel about each other.  And not in a good way.
    If you think the comics are good, but she doesn't, she'll think you're a jerk for laughing at their stupid jokes.
    If she thinks the comics are good, but you don't, the same thing will happen in reverse.
    Even if you both think the comics are good, you'll be too self conscious wondering what she's thinking about your taste in humor, that you won't be able to relax and enjoy yourself. You'll wind up wearing a stressed/conflicted look on your face that will make her think you're weird.

    ReplyDelete
  67. KCosmo11:59 PM

    Chiming in a little late, but:  dinner should be at a restaurant where the atmosphere and/or food will give you something to talk about.  Sitting in a too-quiet restaurant waiting for your penne will ampllify any awkward silence that might arise.  Fun food gives you something to say and something to have fun doing.  (An example:  sukiyaki.)

    Movies are awkward, in my opinion. 

    ReplyDelete
  68. I may be among the minority of the women here but probably not in the minority of women in general....we don't get movie quotes like you guys do!

    So, date tip- if she doesn't get your movie quote joke, that's ok! 

    ReplyDelete
  69. Linda9:13 PM

    Lovely thread.  I wish I'd had a virtual community when I was 20!

    ReplyDelete
  70. Barrett12:34 PM

    Also being from Athens, I was pretty much assuming you were describing DiPalma's - as I too would have been.

    ReplyDelete